It appears that I might have been wrong about the age of the person making the arguments from the last post. The history major from A&M must have graduated because he claims to now be in the Army. I guess that matters little though. Here was another part of his (and another atheist’s) Facebook argument against Christianity and its role in the foundation of our nation.
“most of the founding fathers were deist, not Christian.”
“you do realize that Franklin, Paine, Jefferson, Adams, Washington, to name a few, are all deists, right?”
Often those trying to minimize the influence of Christianity will start by trying to minimize the religious nature of the founders themselves. This is obviously the case here. Before looking at each man it would probably be a good idea to look at the modern definition of deism.
“The belief, based solely on reason, in a God who created the universe and then abandoned it, assuming no control over life, exerting no influence on natural phenomena, and giving no supernatural revelation.”
It is essentially a belief in an impersonal God. A God who created the world and then doesn’t interfere or control anything today. A person believing this would not necessarily believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit, that the Bible is the revealed word of God or things such as prayer. On to the names on the list. We can start with the one that, considering the list, he probably inadvertently got right. Thomas Paine. Many times Thomas Paine is wrongfully labeled as an atheist. The founders probably led to this thought because many of them categorized atheists and deists in the same group. But Thomas Paine did believe in a creator as evidenced with a speech he gave in Paris in 1797 where he argued it is wrong to teach the various sciences in schools without mentioning the author of them…”for all the principles of science are of Divine origin”. Several years before this though, he published Age of Reason. In this work he showed his deist beliefs, bashing religion in general but especially Christianity. So I think it is safe to conclude that Thomas Paine was a deist. More interesting though is what the founders thought of Paine and his work. Since he is on the list, Benjamin Franklin would be a good example. Here is a letter from Benjamin Franklin to Thomas Paine in reference to a manuscript Paine sent to him for review that had deist leanings.
DEAR SIR,
I have read your manuscript with some attention. By the argument it contains against a particular Providence, though you allow a general Providence, you strike at the foundations of all religion. For without the belief of a Providence, that takes cognizance of, guards, and guides, and may favor particular persons, there is no motive to worship a Deity, to fear his displeasure, or to pray for his protection. I will not enter into any discussion of your principles, though you seem to desire it. At present I shall only give you my opinion, that, though your reasonings are subtile and may prevail with some readers, you will not succeed so as to change the general sentiments of mankind on that subject, and the consequence of printing this piece will be, a great deal of odium drawn upon yourself, mischief to you, and no benefit to others. He that spits against the wind, spits in his own face. But, were you to succeed, do you imagine any good would be done by it? You yourself may find it easy to live a virtuous life, without the assistance afforded by religion; you having a clear perception of the advantages of virtue, and the disadvantages of vice, and possessing a strength of resolution sufficient to enable you to resist common temptations. But think how great a portion of mankind consists of weak and ignorant men and women, and of inexperienced, inconsiderate youth of both sexes, who have need of the motives of religion to restrain them from vice, to support their virtue, and retain them in the practice of it till it becomes habitual, which is the great point for its security. And perhaps you are indebted to her originally, that is, to your religious education, for the habits of virtue upon which you now justly value yourself. You might easily display your excellent talents of reasoning upon a less hazardous subject, and thereby obtain a rank with our most distinguished authors. For among us it is not necessary, as among the Hottentots, that a youth, to be raised into the company of men, should prove his manhood by beating his mother. I would advise you, therefore, not to attempt unchaining the tiger, but to burn this piece before it is seen by any other person; whereby you will save yourself a great deal of mortification by the enemies it may raise against you, and perhaps a good deal of regret and repentance. If men are so wicked with religion, what would they be if without it. I intend this letter itself as a proof of my friendship, and therefore add no professions to it; but subscribe simply yours
B. Franklin
If Benjamin Franklin was a deist, then I imagine he would not have told Thomas Paine to “burn this piece before it is seen by any other person.” Another interesting revelation is the comment on prayer. A deist would not believe in prayer because they would not believe that God is involved in our individual lives. Prayer would be useless. But in the letter Franklin talks about prayer for protection. It was also Franklin who suggested a paid chaplain for the continental congress so they could have prayers to guide them in the formation of the new government. David Barton adds these kickers… In Benjamin Franklin’s 1749 plan of education for public schools in Pennsylvania, he insisted that schools teach “the necessity of a public religion . . . and the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern.” Consider also the fact that Franklin proposed a Biblical inscription for the Seal of the United States; that he chose a New Testament verse for the motto of the Philadelphia Hospital; that he was one of the chief voices behind the establishment of a paid chaplain in Congress; and that when in 1787 when Franklin helped found the college which bore his name, it was dedicated as “a nursery of religion and learning” built “on Christ, the Corner-Stone.”
So while Benjamin Franklin is not always considered the most religious of the founders, I do not think that he really fits the mold of a deist, at least not in the way that this particular history major would like you to believe. Historical evidence shows that Christianity and the Bible certainly had an influence on him, which in turn had influence on the foundations of our country.
There was another interesting point in the Benjamin Franklin letter. It may be a little off topic, but my editor is out of town so who is going to stop me (That would be Bailey by the way). William Lane Craig, the great Christian apologetic, says in one of his books that an atheist cannot be both happy and consistent in his (or her) beliefs. The idea behind this thought is that at some point an atheist will have to reach outside their beliefs and take things from Christianity (for example) in order for them to have a meaningful life that has purpose. In a very eloquent way, Franklin relays this message to Paine when he says “And perhaps you are indebted to her originally, that is, to your religious education, for the habits of virtue upon which you now justly value yourself”. He is essentially telling him that the virtues you have and value are those of Christianity, even if you do not give credit where credit is due. They are a result of the Christian culture he was raised/living in. It shows that even those in the founding era who were not necessarily Christian (believers in the Gospel) were still heavily influenced by the Christian culture of early America. It was really inevitable because not only were most of the founders Christian, but their ideas on government came from the likes of John Locke and William Blackstone.
Now on to Thomas Jefferson. I think he is used as an example of atheists / deists more than any other of the founders. I can see why with some of the statements that he made and some of the things that he did that can easily be taken out of context. While I will not pretend to know whether he is sitting in heaven or hell, when you take a step back and look at the man as a whole, his life does not fit that of a deist. The most obvious example is that nowhere is it recorded that he called himself a deist. He did call himself a Christian.
“I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus”
Writing to Benjamin Rush in 1803 he did say that he thought of Jesus as a great teacher, not divine. If that was his last sentiment, then he indeed is not residing in Heaven. But he obviously was influenced by the teachings of Christianity and that in turn, (once again) influenced our foundations. Some of his statements make that pretty obvious.
“The precepts of philosophy, and of the Hebrew Code, laid hold of actions only. He [Jesus] pushed his scrutinizes into the heart of man; erected his tribunal in the region of his thoughts, and purified the waters at the fountain head.”
“No nation has ever existed or been governed without religion. Nor can be. The Christian religion is the best religion that has been given to man and I, as Chief Magistrate of this nation, am bound to give it the sanction of my example.”
He also closed Presidential documents with the phrase, “In the year of our Lord Christ; by the President; Thomas Jefferson.”
But actions often speak louder than words. In this article you will find many examples including approving government buildings for the use of Christian worship services, giving land to Christian missionaries, and founding the University of Virginia (a mulit-denominational Christian university)
So while many of his statements may seem contradictory with regards to Christianity and the Divinity of Jesus Christ, calling him a deist is pretty shallow in my opinion. I believe it is a purposeful attempt to mislead people while hoping they do not look into the matter for themselves. If you look at the words and actions of Jefferson, it does not really matter what label you put on him. He believed in religion and he believed in the principles and morality of Christianity. He also believed in the Biblically based principles on government outlined by Locke, Blackstone, and the Bible itself.
I almost did not include Washington and John Adams in this post. Not to avoid the subject, but rather I feel somewhat disheartened that someone would go to the extremes of questioning the faith of these two founders when there is so much historical evidence to the contrary. I guess revisionists who do such things are hoping people just take them for their word. The disheartening part comes from the fact that the education of the populace is so bad that many people believe them…worse yet the academics promoting these ideas actually believe them. I think my last post sufficiently covers John Adams for now, but I have not written much on President Washington. I believe this quote will suffice though.
Is it necessary that any one should certify, “General Washington avowed himself to me a believer in Christianity?” As well may we question his patriotism, his heroic, disinterested devotion to his country. His mottos were, “Deeds, not Words”; and, “For God and my Country.”
It is in a letter from Nelly Custis-Lewis to Historian Jared Sparks. Nelly was the granddaughter of President Washington who lived and traveled with him for 20 years. There are entire books written on this topic so I hardly think I could do it justice, but the article where I found this letter is a good primer.
I could write on for just about forever if I want to prove how many of the 250 or so founders were Christian, but I think one particular fact sums it up pretty well. When Thomas Paine (someone I would deem as a deist) returned to America after his trek in France, he died as an outcast. His work Age of Reason left him all alone. If so many of the founders and other Americans believed as he did, do you really think that would be the case?






{ 7 comments… read them below or add one }
You do a very good job at showing how the term “deist” is misleading when applied to Jefferson, Franklin, and Paine. Thank you. In the future, I will be careful to avoid the use of that word in reference to any of our nation’s founders.
Obviously anyone who says that Christianity did not influence the founders of the US just plain doesn’t understand the past.
But–you have to make a distinction between cultural Christianity and genuine faith in Christ. The majority of people in Western society at that time were “Christians.” This doesn’t mean they were genuine followers of Christ. It doesn’t mean they weren’t.
It does mean that you have to take the fact that Christianity was the cultural norm into account whenever you try to understand people from that era.
Franklin’s letter is no evidence of genuine faith in Christ. For sure it is evidence of a deep understanding of human nature and the human need for religion. I am impressed with the insight it shows. However, Franklin’s autobiography suggests to me that he saw himself as above or more enlightened then the common people who need religion. Nothing I know of him from after he wrote his autobiography indicates a change.
And Jefferson might believe that he is a true Christ-follower because he endeavors to follow Christ’s teaching, but he misses the crux of Christ’s teaching if he does not accept Him as I AM. This is a contradictory position as you point out. But it is a common position.
No argument about Washington and Adams.
However, the fact that all of these men were influenced by Christianity and had great respect for Christianity does not then mean the modern United States should be “Christian” any more than it should be Jewish, Islamic, etc.
There might be other good arguments that a nation should be Christian… but that isn’t one of them.
I’m trying to reach you, via your website’s webform-based “contact” form. I think it’s stuck. Can you please send me a message via my email address? Thanks!!
Sent you an email.
Emily,
I must say that the “should” in your semi enlightened argument is something that, as a believer in Christ as the only Lord and Savior, I have to admonish you regarding Truth accordingly. “Should” is a powerfully suggestive term. It is used to suggest duty, propriorty, ought, must, and used to make many statements less direct or blunt; however, there is nothing in the New Testament Revelation, in the Old Testament Isaiah, Jeremiah, Leviticus, Deuteronomy or even Genesis that offers “should” as a saving directive of mankind. It is made blatantly clear throughout the varying books of testament that the directive is more than “should” for this nation of any other. Only a politically correct nonethetical adherence to God’s word would land any doubt on what this nation “should” do as far as defining itself as Christian. The very salvation of this nation depends on it, collectively and individually.
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DNvgj0PtFyoI%26sns%3Dfb&sns=fb&v=Nvgj0PtFyoI&gl=US
Even though the liberal media and the Islamist try to hide it, the fact remains…. Nations know the Truth, but the liberal mind doesn’t see how government collaborate to end Christianity. Even Egypt has thousands who cry for Jesus to come. Watch the video.
I don’t quite understand you, Robbi.
For clarification, I didn’t say whether I think the US should or should not identify itself as I “Christian” nation (because I don’t know). I said the argument that TSC presents (about the founders) above is not sufficient to reach the conclusion he does (that the US should be a Christian nation).
I am open to other arguments.
No where in the NT are Christians commanded to campaign for political change or to try to exert political power. We are commanded (among other things) to pray “Your Kingdom come, Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.” This is my prayer every time I pray about the political situation of our nation (and the world).
God knows what we need better than we do. In the words of an Iranian Christian I met a few months ago who was admonishing an old Canadian woman, afraid of the Muslims taking over Canada, “Dear sister, don’t be afraid. Trust God. We must see as He sees. Who knows, maybe the best thing for Canada is for it to become Islamic. Maybe it would bring people to Christ. Try to see as God sees. His ways are not our ways.” (Not the answer I was expecting from him
This Iranian Christian had just finished telling us about the revival happening in Iran–millions of Christians there now, people becoming Christians every day–which he attributes to God putting Ahmadinejad in power to show people the true face of Islam.
Pray “Your Kingdom come, Your will be done” and try to see as God sees.
When I was in Iraq, my dad would send me days off of a calendar. Each day had a verse and a modern proverb based off of that verse. One I still remember said, “Trust in God, but row away from the rocks”. Forget what verse that was based on…will have to look that up.
Perhaps I am putting words into Robi’s mouth, but that was the first thing that came to mind when I was reading yall’s conversation. While we should trust in God, we must keep in mind that while that is true, God uses us to accomplish his will. So as the book we are going over in my Bible study says…Do something.
Back to the post….The real point of it was to combat people who try to diminish the role Christianity should have on our government today by diminishing the role it had in the beginning. I would agree with Robi that Christianity is under attack in this country and that as Christians we have the responsibility to combat that. Being a Christian means being a Christian 24/7. It is not something we just do in Church…it should guide our principles in everything we do and that includes governing principles. So when I say we should be a Christian nation that is what I mean. Christians should influence the government to maintain the Christian founding principles our country was founded upon. As we have moved away from these principles our country has decayed to the point where we seem overwhelmed with problems. That is the practical evidence to maintain them, but a Christian should not need that to convince them.
By the way….if you have a heart to help bring Christ to Iran, Advancing Native Missions (on my Charity page) works with ELAM ministries to send missionaries and Bibles to Iran. All underground, of course. They also have a very good book called “The Mosque Exposed” that they sale to support that ministry. Eye opening book written by Iranian converts.