I promised some posts on the arguments I was seeing on Facebook… with regards to the articles about the Obama administrations attempts to remove religion (specifically Christianity) from the public sphere.
So there was a commenter who made the statement that we were founded as a Christian nation and Christianity should continue to have a role. Here was part of the response he received.
“No, it did not. Ive already proven that. Treaty of Tripoli 1796 “As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion” Signed by John Adams. get your facts straight.”
And followed up by another comment
“also the text was approved by Washington and passed unanimously by the Senate”
So the question is; how do you respond to historical revisionism such as this? WallBuilders provides a very good article on the topic. If I may steal some of their research and add a few other tidbits.
First, you should probably point out the obvious fallacies of their statements. There were several treaties made with the Muslim Barbary Countries over the course of the Barbary Wars. The treaty they are referencing was made in 1797. A second minor point is that Washington never approved the treaty. In fact, he never saw it. It did not arrive in America until several months after Washington left office. No secure email back then. But none of this gets to the crux of the issue…it just reduces the credibility of the history major.
The real issue is the statement itself. The above mentioned line was indeed in the treaty of 1797, but as you can imagine, that was not the only line. Here is the surrounding text of article XI of that treaty:
“As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion as it has in itself no character of enmity [hatred] against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen [Muslims] and as the said States [America] have never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.”
The second half (or rather 4/5ths) of the statement is pretty important. “Is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion” is qualified with what that means in this instance. The Americans knew the history of the wars between Muslims and Christians in Europe. Wars fought over religion. This statement in its entirety was expressing to these Muslim nations that America’s Christianity was different than that of Europe. We had no intention of fighting a war solely based upon religion (although neither was Europe but not from the point of view of the Muslims). It is also important to know that these Barbary countries were also fighting England, France, Spain, and Denmark during this time (because they were Christian…see a pattern). Our diplomats wanted to distinguish the US and these counties in an effort to protect our merchant ships because at the time we did not have the naval power to protect them. The results were treaties such as this one and protection payments (jizya tax) among other things. Those that have studied Islam know that the jizya tax is a tax imposed upon nonbelievers in order to allow them to live in dhimma status. According to Islam, it was convert, pay the tax and live in dhimma status, or die. These nations were following this precedent set by Muhammad. I guess if you want to get technical, you can say that Muslims threw the first stone…so much for that America got what it deserved argument…but that is a whole other conversation.
The bottom line is that when you read the entire article in context it shows that the intention of the line was not to say that the nation was not founded upon Christian principles. I think any honest historian would be compelled to agree with this stance, even if they have a personal disdain for Christianity. But as further confirmation, I think it is good to look at the man who actually did sign the treaty, John Adams. Here are a few quotes from John Adams that add credibility to the argument.
“Human government is more or less perfect as it approaches nearer or diverges farther from the imitation of this perfect plan of divine and moral government.”
“We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”
“Statesmen by dear Sir, may plan and speculate for Liberty, but it is Religion and Morality alone, which can establish the Principles upon which Freedom can securely stand . . . . The only foundation of a free Constitution, is pure Virtue, and if this cannot be inspired into our People, in a great Measure, than they have it now, they may change their Rulers, and the forms of Government, but they will not obtain a lasting Liberty.”
“The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were. . . . the general principles of Christianity. . . . I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God; and that those principles of liberty are as unalterable as human nature.”
These comments are indicative of not only John Adams view of government, but also most of the other founding fathers. They contradict the revisionist argument and support the full reading in context. Since he obviously believed that Christianity had a significant role in the formation of our government, it does not make sense for critics to interpret the wording of the treaty in the way they have.
Of course, the founders were not the only ones that came to the realization that the newly formed United States was indeed a Christian nation. If you have read my blog for some time I have posted the following book quotes before, but I thought they were relevant in this discussion.
From the writings of Alexis de Tocqueville in Democracy in America, published in 1835:
“Upon my arrival in the United States, the religious aspect of the country was the first thing that struck my attention; and the longer I stayed there, the more did I perceive the great political consequences resulting from this state of things, to which I was unaccustomed. In France I had almost always seen the spirit of religion and the spirit of freedom pursuing courses diametrically opposed to each other; but in America I found that they were intimately united, and that they reigned in common over the same country.”
From French atheist Achille Murat, in A Moral and Political Sketch of the United States, published in 1833
“It must be admitted that looking at the physiognomy [discernible character] of the United States, its religion is the only feature which disgusts a foreigner…There is no country in which the people are so religious as in the United States; to the eyes of a foreigner they even appear to be too much so…The great number of religious societies existing in the United States is truly surprising; there are some of them for everything; for instance, societies to distribute the Bible; to distribute tracts; to encourage religious journals; to concert, civilize, educate the savages; to marry the preachers; to take care of their widows and orphans; to preach, extend, purify, preserve, reform the faith; to build chapels, endow congregations, support seminaries; catechize and convert sailors, Negroes, and loose women; to secure the observance of Sunday and prevent blasphemy by prosecuting the violators; to establish Sunday schools where young ladies teach reading and the catechism to little rogues, male and female; to prevent drunkenness…”
From English atheist Harriet Martineau in Society in America, published in1837
“There is no evading the conviction that it [Christianity] is to a vast extent a monstrous superstition that is thus embraced by the tyrant, the profligate [immoral], the weakling, the bigot, the coward, and the slave…The institutions of America are, as I have said, planted down deep into Christianity. Its spirit must make an effectual pilgrimage through a society of which it may be called a native; and no mistrust of its influences can forever intercept that spirit in its mission of denouncing anomalies, exposing hypocrisy, rebuking faithlessness, raising and communing with the outcast, and driving out sordidness from the circuit of this, the most glorious temple of society that has ever yet been reared.”
I think the last two were especially significant since the two men that gave the revisionist view on the Treaty of Tripoli are also atheists (as revealed from subsequent comments on that article). While they may not agree with the idea of Christianity, they should not let that prejudice influence what they say about historic events in an effort to mislead others. Especially the one who lists himself as a history major at Texas A&M.
{ 28 comments }
“As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.” Are you daft? Blatant, official proclamation, what else do you need?
Your typical apologist, trying to sway the issue type rhetoric fails. Just accept the fact that this is NOT a christian nation and never will be. Long live freedom for everyone.
Jay,
I have put the line you quoted in full context in the post along with historical support for its intent. What evidence do you provide to support your stated position?
Does it really hurt that bad to accept the truth? How can you reinterpret such obvious words? You lose any sort of credibility to try to say the “intent” of section IX was anything but a plain statement of secularism. It’s ok to be secular. It doesn’t mean the people comprising the nation are any less christian or religious. It simply means the political system shouldn’t involve religion as other governments during the time of the framers did and were in constant sectarian struggle (which was the reason for language such as this in treaties with Islamic countries or pro-religion phrases in treaties with christian countries). We have many christian sec’s in the US. Which one should be the dominate religious view? Catholic, Mormon, evangelical? They all think they have it right the other has is wrong. That kind of difference needs to stay in the churches and homes of the religious people and not in elections or legislation – secularism does not mean anti-religion. To the contrary, it is the greatest safeguard of religious freedom, exactly how the framers saw it.
PS – I can give you 3 John Adams quotes negatively commenting or questioning christian religion to every 1 you can produce. 10 to 1 for Jefferson, and 2 to 1 on average for all of the first 5 presidents. Do you really want to play this game to reassure your own insecurity about your religious identity? If you think George Washington was a christian, you should cancel your internet subscription and take up bowling. You are lost and unhappy.
Bill-
My point is your truth is historical revisionism. My original question still stands. When you have a religious people you will inherently not have a secular government. The government will be influenced by their beliefs. Just like a government can be influenced by those who have pagan beliefs. In the case of Christian denominations….the Bible is the standard for those beliefs, whatever denomination it may be. They use the same book. If they are not using it, then it is not a Christian denomination.
As for the other…I am game.
Wow, you are really stretching far to prove your point. When you need to reach that far than you know your views are flawed. The excerpt from article XI, as well as the entire act that you posted has one clear cut statement ‘we are not a Christian nation, nor are our policies influenced by Christianity.’ All of the twisting in the world cannot change that fact. You are simply babbling on and on to try and make a point that doesn’t exist. You then go on to quote several people that had nothing to do with the U.S. government and a few out-of-context quotes from John Adams talking about religion. Bad form, man, bad form indeed…..
Justin,
I have not stretched or twisted anything, especially not by the items you listed. All the facts I listed were to give historical context to the intent of the article. The outside quotes are relevant because it shows the Christian influence on our government, even from an outside perspective. The John Adams quotes are not taken out of context. If you believe they are, then provide evidence that shows that. They simply illustrate his views on Christianity and the importance of its principles in government. By itself, the article in its full context clearly states what they meant by “is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion”. I would suggest re-reading it while thinking about the historical events that I mentioned that were going on at the time of the treaty. John Adams’ statements just give added evidence to support this intent against arguments such as the one you and others are trying to make. They show he believed we were founded as a Christian nation, therefore your argument does not pass the common sense test since he was the one who signed the Treaty.
As with the others I have asked. If you truly believe your argument, provide historical context/evidence that illustrates your point so it can be discussed.
Thanks for a well thought out, contextual review of a quote torn to shreds by Christophobes of all shapes and sizes (though mental diminution seems to be their prevailing dimension). Having now read the entire sentence, it’s clearly disingenuous to not follow the quote as it is commonly presented with an ellipsis (…), as it misleads the reader into believing that they have read the complete thought. Then again, when has deception not been the weapon of those on the wrong side of an argument?
Sssooo, your argument is that they lied in order to get their way at the specific moment in time. Doesn’t this land us in the Epimenides paradox? so when are they not lying? if every word has a hidden meaning, even when the dichotomy is blatant as official political documents are, how can anything be conveyed? what is the point of having a language? and to say that the small sliver of their life was expressed in their every political thought is a bit much. if they were good little christians they would have stayed in england, gritted their teeth and bared the oppression the felt they were under. but your argument was well written and thought out, kudos.
kimbo,
Sorry for the belated response…been pretty busy. My argument is not that they lied to get their way. My argument is that with the second part of the sentence, which is often not cited by those with an agenda, they conveyed to the Barbary States that the United States was not like the Christian based nations in Europe that would fight them simply because of religion. Nations that the Barbary States were fighting at the time. Crusade type stuff. Of course the crusades were in response to Muslim aggression that you can actually trace back to Mohammed. Thats a whole different post though. The Barbary countries stated reason for attacking American ships in the first place was because they knew we were a Christian nation. Because of this they as Muslims had a duty/right to try to convert/enslave or kill us. Unfortunately it is a lesson that I fear we have still not grasped.
I heartily approve of your distinction between American and European Christianity. Bravo, sir.
Chris,
I appreciate the stand that you have taken for the truth that our nation was founded as a Christian nation, and I agree that the Treaty of Tripoli does not contradict that fact. I would, however, like to offer an alternative explanation for the phrase contained in Article 11 of that treaty. I have recently written a very detailed explanation of this phrase in an exchange that I had with Chris Pinto of Noise of Thunder Radio, and I would be honored to have you read it and convey to me your opinion of it. The explanation is available on my website in two separate articles. The first contains a brief overview of the facts concerning the treaty and of my refutation of Mr. Pinto’s claims. The second provides the historical details which support the claims of the first article. You can read the two articles at the following links:
http://www.increasinglearning.com/hiding-the-faith-of-the-founders.html
http://www.increasinglearning.com/smoke-and-mirrors.html
Bill,
Interesting reads…really enjoyed them. Had not heard some of those arguments before, but of course, I do not claim to be a historian. Could have been a combination of both? Even with errors and it being from an Islamic leader, I do not think the wording was bad enough for them not to sign it. Especially considering that I doubt they would ever believe in a million years that people would question their faith and motives for things like the left does today.
After reading the quote in the context, it still reads like a denial of christianity. The second part only affirms this. It states the way I read it that since we area not a christian nation we have no hatred or reason to prosecute a war with muslims. The last statement basically states that the there can be no war arising on the pretext of different opinion because we officially have no religious stance. I do agree with what you said that since religious people use their religious beliefs to write laws, there is always religion in the law. However, I think what most people mean when they say that this is not a chrisitan nation is that there is no mention of christianity in the constituion or of religion at all save the statement that no religious test shall be required for office. Doesn’t the fact that these religious men kept all religion out of our founding document point to the idea that they were trying to keep religion out of office. Cetainly they could have included it if they wanted.
You’re grasping at straws here, the United States was founded as a secular country and that’s a simple fact.
Matthew,
What evidence can you provide that the country was not founded on Christian principles? If you cannot do that then you are misreading the article and its intent. I will add that the founders did not keep all religion out of our founding documents. It takes a little more scholarship than just reading the Constitution itself. You need to read the Declaration of Independence (which is really part of the intent of the law that would come) and the documents surrounding the development of our country. It helps if you know the Bible well too. Most of that generation knew the Bible well enough that they did not have to be explicit; people understood. It was a part of their culture that unfortunately has dwindled… to the demise of our current society. Just check out the news. Feel free to email me about that stuff if you want.
The Treaty of Tripoli states” “As the government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian Religion…” A government treaty created in the initial years of our country, signed by the President and ratified by the Senate, stating we are not a Christian nation. It was read aloud to the Senate, and each Senator received a printed copy. This was the 339th time that a recorded vote was required by the Senate, but only the third time a vote was unanimous (the next time was to honor George Washington). There is no record of any debate or dissension on the Treaty. It was reprinted in full in three newspapers – two in Philadelphia, one in New York City. There is no record of public outcry or complaint in subsequent editions of the papers.
Because Article VI, clause 2 of the United States Constitution renders ratified treaties “the supreme Law of the Land”, this confirms that the government of the United States was specifically intended to be religiously neutral.
President Adams signed the treaty and proclaimed it to the nation on 10 June 1797. His statement on it was a bit unusual: “Now be it known, That I John Adams, President of the United States of America, having seen and considered the said Treaty do, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, accept, ratify, and confirm the same, and every clause and article thereof. And to the End that the said Treaty may be observed and performed with good Faith on the part of the United States, I have ordered the premises to be made public; And I do hereby enjoin and require all persons bearing office civil or military within the United States, and all other citizens or inhabitants thereof, faithfully to observe and fulfill the said Treaty and every clause and article thereof.”
“Although it had its share of strenuous Christians … the gathering at Philadelphia was largely made up of men in whom the old fires were under control or had even flickered out. Most were nominally members of one of the traditional churches in their part of the country… and most were men who could take their religion or leave it alone. Although no one in this sober gathering would have dreamed of invoking the Goddess of Reason, neither would anyone have dared to proclaim his opinions had the support of the God of Abraham and Paul. The Convention of 1787 was highly rationalist and even secular in spirit.” (Clinton Rossiter, 1787: The Grand Convention, pp. 147-148.)
Much has been made of Benjamin Franklin’s suggestion that the Convention open its morning sessions with prayer. His motion was turned down, however, and not again taken up. Franklin himself noted that “with the exception of 3 or 4, most thought prayers unnecessary.” (Ferrand, Records of the Federal Convention of 1787, rev. ed., Vol. 1, p.452.)
“One of the embarrassing problems for the early nineteenth-century champions of the Christian faith was that not one of the first six Presidents of the United States was an orthodox Christian.”
The Encyclopedia Brittanica, 1968 Edition, p. 420
Jefferson wrote voluminously to prove that Christianity was not part of the law of the land and that religion or irreligion was purely a private matter, not cognizable by the state. (Leonard W. Levy, Treason Against God: A History of the Offense of Blasphemy, New York: Schocken Books, 1981, p. 335.)
I respect TSC very spirited argument. However, whenever I hear statements over & over, saying America is a christian nation & was founded as such, I ask one question that so far no christian or constitutional historian has EVER been able to answer….& it’s quite simple:
If the Founding Father’s wanted America to be a christian nation, why not put in in writing? The Constitution? The Bill of Rights? They wanted liberty for all…it’s in there. They wanted justice…it’s in there.
The Constitution starts as follows:
“We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.”
Why didn’t they just put in there “being of a Christian nation”. But no, they didn’t.
Even the Pledge of Allegiance wasn’t written by the founding fathers. It was written in 1892 by a minister, not the founding fathers.
It is quite obvious they wanted no part of religion in the conversation. Even your examples were speculation as to what they might have thought or said, versus an actual document (Treaty) that was written & signed. Until anyone can answer that one question, I’ll stick to the facts on paper….not speculation as to what they might have thought in their head.
The question above – “If the Founding Father’s wanted America to be a christian nation, why not put in in writing? The Constitution? The Bill of Rights?” I’d like to give that one a shot as pertaining to “founded as a Christian nation”. Will the Declaration of Independence do? “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.” Notice the capitalization of the word “Creator”? Old school Christians capitalize all reference to God, and what God grants the individual, examples: He, His Word, Life, Liberty, Happiness. Of course it does not specifically state “Christian nation”, but it certainly suggest that this nation’s foundation was built by religious (Christian) ideologies.
The Founding Fathers were vastly men of God. Religion shaped their morals. Their morals shaped the constitution. This nation was established by the religious principles of our Founding Fathers.
Today Christian’s make-up over 80% of our population. By majority, we are a Christian nation.
The Treaty of Tripoli was a diplomatic necessity and irrelevant to the argument when considering all things before, and after.
“The new Census shews our increase to be in the geometrical ratio of 3 1/6 pr. cent annually which gives a duplication in 22 y— 3 m equal to the most sanguine of our calculations. We are already about the 7th. of the Christian nations in population, but holding a higher place in substantial abilities. If we can keep at peace for our time the next generation will have nothing to fear but from their own want of moderation in the use of their strength.”
–Thomas Jefferson, The Papers of Thomas Jefferson, Volume 35: 1 August to 30 November 1801, Barbara B. Oberg, ed., Princeton, 2008, letter to Gouverneur Morris, 1 November 1801.
Odd…Mr. Jefferson considered the US to be one of the “Christian nations” when comparing the population of the country relative to that “of the Christian nations”. In order to be “of the Christian nations”, said country would have to be a….Christian nation.
@Crammer
“that they are endowed by their Creator” Why not “endowed by God”, or “endowed by Jesus” if the intention was to create a christian nation? Because it is a deist statement. Deism holds that a god created the world and walked away from it, he does not intervene in it.
Founding fathers who have been identified as deist – Jefferson, Franklin, Madison, Paine and sometimes Washington. Not that that matters a great deal. The documents they created, with no reference to a christian god, are proof enough.
Odd…Mr. Jefferson considered the US to be one of the “Christian nations” when comparing the population of the country relative to that “of the Christian nations”. In order to be “of the Christian nations”, said country would have to be a….Christian nation.
Certainly, we were indeed one of the Christian nations insofar as we were a nation of Christians. We were also a white nation insofar as we were majority white. We were an English speaking nation. We were also, according to Jefferson, a nation of Yeoman farmers. That’s a far cry from saying that we were founded on our whiteness, our Englishness, our agrarian nature or our religion. Jefferson’s letter to the Danbury Baptists makes that clear.
I believe I am the original poster of that Facebook comment as it partly seems familiar. If memory serves, it was in response to a CNN article wherein a poster stated the U.S. was a Christian Nation. If you’re going to post about a comment posted and argue against it, I would highly recommend that you link to it directly. Though I could be wrong, I believe I’ve been misquoted and that there has been a subtle alteration in the wording.
The fact of the matter is, Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli specifically stated that the U.S. was not founded specifically as a Christian nation. It was founded as a nation that is not driven by any one religion or respecting a specific religion, rather, it was founded as a nation amicable to all religions institutions, or those without a religion.
Interesting fact, a number of “founding fathers” were deists. I think a better argument can be made that the U.S. was founded as a nation that believed in a higher power “God”, but not as one respecting a specific religion.
I challenge you to find an official document in the legislative history that states that the U.S. was founded specifically as a Christian nation. Also, please note, I’m sure you can find something in the recent record, but what I’m looking for is something that has a number of “founding fathers” signing and affirming this document.
Thank you for your historical examination of this solitary event that has been misconstrued and wrongfully constructed as some how evincing an animosity toward religion in the early government of America. I find it odd that some on the Left of this issue prefer to look only at very select segments of the historical record. They ignore the predominant evidence making it clear that the men responsible for our principal document of government did adhere to a strong fervent adoration of the morals and principles of the Bible and the divine Providence that aided in the creation of this nation. Those critics omit Charles Thomson’s Great American seal that is still seen on the back of the one dollar bill. They gloss over the facts the very author of the “wall” declared in his 2nd Inaugural address that religion should be left with the states and religious leaders, while also employing the government assets to conduct worship services and evangelize the native tribes. They flippantly brush off the historical analysis, conducted by outsiders like Tocqueville, during this infant state of the US signifying the imperative influence religion played in government. While not every Founding Father was a devout Christian they all held its morals and principles in high esteem and thought it appropriate to be considered as an influence on the rights of man. This is not to say that America is certainly a Christian Nation, but it would be inaccurate and to consider that it was not founded on Christian ideals.
I have enjoyed reading all of the comments, as I am doing some personal research on the topic. I am a Jesus-loving Christian, so with that knowledge I suppose some of you may write me off immediately, if you choose. My general knowledge of our nations establishment does imply a Christian beginning. Many of the arguments presented above are, for the most part, well thought out and researched. I suppose we will never know for certain the original thoughts of our forefathers since they are not here to answer our questions, but wouldn’t it be nice if they were?
It seems that Christianity and its’ moral values were widely practiced at that time (and forgive me if this isn’t a fair comparison) in the same way that people in the Middle East practice Islam. Wouldn’t it be absurd in the minds of those people in that part of the world to elect leaders that did not share Muslim values and beliefs? As TSC referenced those 1800′s quotes from people outside of the U.S., Christianity and its values permeated the society. Is it possible that many “unsaid/unwritten” references to Christianity don’t exist because it was understood to be part of their way of life?
Where does morality, as understood by our founding fathers, come from? Regardless of whether it was written or not, there is an understood moral code that was “endowed by our Creator” that these men recognized and implemented in the founding of this nation. Will someone give that in writing? Thanks for reading my rambling. I’m just trying to think out loud and decided to share my thoughts, which I don’t usually do online. TSC, I’m interested in your feedback on some of the above comments. You’ve handled your responses very professionally and respectfully, well done.
Erica,
Thanks for stopping by. Your comments are right on track. The reason I never responded to Eric’s challenge is that the challenge itself is in my opinion intellectually shallow. There are several reasons I say that. (1) There were over 200 men you could consider as founding fathers that had significant influence. There are no documents signed by all of them, but there are numerous documents that would satisfy Eric’s challenge. A couple of the books on my recommended books list reference those documents. The reason people cannot find this evidence is the same reason a thief cannot find the police. They are not looking for them. (2) A second reason that I call it intellectually shallow is because if you have studied the Bible and the principles within its covers that are applicable to government, it is very apparent that the founders relied on them to develop our nation. Things such as separation of powers, private property, limited federal government, freedom of religion, freedom of speech, right to bear arms…the list goes on…are all derived from the Bible. They did not have to sign a document saying so…it would have been apparent to the population at the time. Justice Joseph Story’s Commentaries actually discuss this very issue if I am not mistaken. Benjamin Morris’ book also references a discussion between Washington and Hamilton (think those were the two) on the fact that it was not expressly written in the Constitution. (3) The people who influenced the founders based their ideas on government from the Bible. Locke, for example, was actually a theologian.
I think there can be some confusion on what people mean when they say founded as a Christian nation. America was founded as a Christian nation in that the founding principles it was founded on were obviously Biblical in nature, as were the principles in the Declaration and Constitution. But it was not a Christian nation in the way that countries like England were because there was no forced national religion.
The argument that the founders were mostly deists is also pretty poor. I wrote a short post on the topic, but if you check out David Barton’s “Original Intent” there are several pages of statements by the founders that illustrate their faith in Jesus.
http://thesteadyconservative.com/wordpress/2011/12/21/deism/
After this past election, I think it is safe to say that we now live in a secular society though. My last couple of posts make that pretty clear. We have gotten away from these principles, which is why we are having so many problems.
I just want to point something I find very funny out. This document, which was unanimously passed, and is quite blatantly worded clearly states we are not founded on Christianity and yet Christians will still argue against it. The funny part is had this treaty said the opposite it would surely go down as irrefutable evidence that we are indeed Christian. Ah the finer points of faith.
Accept it or not, a majority of our founders were deists at most, no dogma, and they intended our government to remain out of religious discussion.
B
Your argument has been thoroughly refuted both in the post and in my subsequent comments. I really do not feel further comments are needed as you have not provided any evidence to support your idea. History simply does not support your argument. I will leave with this though…Obviously deists would not believe in prayer yet the founders did and instituted prayer to open Congress. Deists also would not believe in Jesus Christ yet their comments show that they did believe in the saving grace through Christ’s death on the cross. Take this small sample:
Principally and first of all, I recommend my soul to that Almighty Being Who gave it and my body I commit to the dust, relying upon the merits of Jesus Christ for a pardon of all my sins. SAMUEL ADAMS,
Rendering thanks to my Creator for my existence and station among His works, for my birth in a country enlightened by the Gospel and enjoying freedom, and for all His other kindnesses, to Him I resign myself, humbly confiding in His goodness and in His mercy through Jesus Christ for the events of eternity. JOHN DICKINSON,
I resign my soul into the hands of the Almighty who gave it in humble hopes of His mercy through our Savior Jesus Christ. GABRIEL DUVALL
[T]hanks be given unto Almighty God therefore, and knowing that it is appointed for all men once to die and after that the judgment [HEBREWS 9:27] … principally, I give and recommend my soul into the hands of Almighty God Who gave it and my body to the earth to be buried in a decent and Christian like manner … to receive the same again at the general resurrection by the mighty power of God. JOHN HART
This is all the inheritance I can give to my dear family. The religion of Christ can give them one which will make them rich indeed. PATRICK HENRY
Unto Him who is the author and giver of all good, I render sincere and humble thanks for His manifold and unmerited blessings, and especially for our redemption and salvation by His beloved Son…. Blessed be His holy name. JOHN JAY
My soul I resign into the hands of my Almighty Creator, Whose tender mercies are all over His works, Who hateth nothing that He hath made, and to the justice and wisdom of whose dispensations I willingly and cheerfully submit, humbly hoping from His unbounded mercy and benevolence, through the merits of my blessed Savior, a remission of my sins. GEORGE MASON
I am constrained to express my adoration of the Supreme Being, the Author of my existence, in full belief of His Providential goodness and His forgiving mercy revealed to the world through Jesus Christ, through Whom I hope for never ending happiness in a future state. ROBERT TREAT PAINE,
And as my children will have frequent occasion of perusing this instrument and may probably be particularly impressed with the last words of their father, I think it proper here not only to subscribe to the entire belief of the great and leading doctrines of the Christian religion, such as the being of God, the universal defection and depravity of human nature, the Divinity of the person and the completeness of the redemption purchased by the blessed Saviour, the necessity of the operations of the Divine Spirit, of Divine faith accompanied with an habitual virtuous life, and the universality of the Divine Providence, but also, in the bowels of a father’s affection, to exhort and charge them that the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, that the way of life held up in the Christian system is calculated for the most complete happiness that can be enjoyed in this mortal state. RICHARD STOCKTON,
My hopes of a future life are all founded upon the Gospel of Christ and I cannot cavil or quibble away [evade or object to]…. the whole tenor of His conduct by which He sometimes positively asserted and at others countenances [permits] His disciples in asserting that He was God. JOHN QUINCY ADAMS
Now to the triune God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, be ascribed all honor and dominion, forevermore – Amen. GUNNING BEDFORD
[T]he religion I have [is] to love and fear God, believe in Jesus Christ, do all the good to my neighbor and myself that I can, do as little harm as I can help, and trust on God’s mercy for the rest. DANIEL BOONE
You have been instructed from your childhood in the knowledge of your lost state by nature – the absolute necessity of a change of heart and an entire renovation of soul to the image of Jesus Christ – of salvation thro’ His meritorious righteousness only – and the indispensable necessity of personal holiness without which no man shall see the Lord. ELIAS BOUDINOT
[D]on’t forget to be a Christian. I have said much to you on this head and I hope an indelible impression is made. JACOB BROOM
On the mercy of my Redeemer I rely for salvation and on His merits; not on the works I have done in obedience to His precepts. CHARLES CARROLL
For my part, I am free and ready enough to declare that I think the Christian religion is a Divine institution; and I pray to God that I may never forget the precepts of His religion or suffer the appearance of an inconsistency in my principles and practice. JAMES IREDELL,
I … am endeavoring … to attend to my own duty only as a Christian…. let us take care that our Christianity, though put to the test … be not shaken, and that our love for things really good wax not cold. WILLIAM SAMUEL JOHNSON
My object in telling you this is that if anything happens to me you might know, and perhaps it would console you to remember, that on this point my mind is clear; I rest my hopes of salvation on the Lord Jesus Christ. JAMES KENT
[M]ay I always hear that you are following the guidance of that blessed Spirit that will lead you into all truth, leaning on that Almighty arm that has been extended to deliver you, trusting only in the only Saviour, and going on in your way to Him rejoicing. FRANCIS SCOTT KEY
I desire to bless and praise the name of God most high for appointing me my birth in a land of Gospel Light where the glorious tidings of a Saviour and of pardon and salvation through Him have been continually sounding in mine ears. ROBERT TREAT PAINE
Pardon, we beseech Thee, all our offences of omission and commission; and grant that in all our thoughts, words, and actions, we may conform to Thy known will manifested in our consciences and in the revelations of Jesus Christ our Saviour. TIMOTHY PICKERING
I am at last reconciled to my God and have assurance of His pardon through faith in Christ, against which the very gates of hell cannot prevail. Fear hath been driven out by perfect love. JOHN RANDOLPH
My only hope of salvation is in the infinite transcendent love of God manifested to the world by the death of His Son upon the Cross. Nothing but His blood will wash away my sins. I rely exclusively upon it. Come, Lord Jesus! Come quickly! BENJAMIN RUSH
I believe that there is one only living and true God, existing in three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, the same in substance equal in power and glory. That the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are a revelation from God and a complete rule to direct us how we may glorify and enjoy Him…. I believe that the souls of believers are at their death made perfectly holy and immediately taken to glory: that at the end of this world there will be a resurrection of the dead and a final judgment of all mankind when the righteous shall be publicly acquitted by Christ the Judge and admitted to everlasting life and glory, and the wicked be sentenced to everlasting punishment. ROGER SHERMAN
Jesus Christ has in the clearest manner inculcated those duties which are productive of the highest moral felicity and consistent with all the innocent enjoyments, to which we are impelled by the dictates of nature. Religion, when fairly considered in its genuine simplicity and uncorrupted state, is the source of endless rapture and delight. ZEPHANIAH SWIFT
[Pray t]hat God would graciously pour out His Spirit upon us and make the blessed Gospel in His hand effectual to a thorough reformation and general revival of the holy and peaceful religion of Jesus Christ. JONATHAN TRUMBULL
I shall now conclude my discourse by preaching this Savior to all who hear me, and entreating you in the most earnest manner to believe in Jesus Christ, for “there is no salvation in any other” [ACTS 4:12]…. [I]f you are not reconciled to God through Jesus Christ – if you are not clothed with the spotless robe of His righteousness, you must forever perish. JOHN WITHERSPOON
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